Podcast

What Do We Want?

A podcast about what brings movements together...
...and drives them apart.

With Sarah Stein Lubrano and Max Haiven

What Do We Want? Is a podcast about the weird, wild and wonderful things that draw social movements together… and drive them apart.

We ask the tough and uncomfortable questions that keep organizers for ecological, economic, social, gender and racial justice awake at night!

Drawing on co-host Sarah Stein Lubrano’s specialization in politics and the cognitive sciences and co-host Max Haiven’s writing on activism and the radical imagination, each episode shares research, stories and insights to help social movements and the people who care about them change the world.

The podcasts’ first season’s six episodes focus on heartbreak, conspiracy, despair, fantasy, shame and pleasure and special guests include Rachel Donald, Lola Olufemi, Brent Lee and Sophie Lewis.

What Do We Want? is an initiative of Max and Sarah’s project Sense & Solidarity, a platform for radical social movements and their protagonists ot learn about ideology, psychology and how to change hearts and minds.

What Do We Want is written and hosted by Sarah Stein Lubrano and Max Haiven and produced and edited by Alastair Elphick. Music and sound mastering is by Daniel Gouly. The project has been supported by RiVAL: The ReImagining Value Action Lab and our many crowdfunding supporters (see below).  

Season 1 trailer - 23 October 2024

Wait... What Do We Want?

In this trailer, Max and Sarah discuss what motivated them to produce WHAT DO WE WANT? (a podcast about what draws movements together… and drives them apart) and what they’re looking forward to in season 1, with episodes on heartbreak, conspiracy, despair, fantasy, shame and pleasure and special guests including Rachel Donald, Lola Olufemi, Brent Lee and Sophie Lewis.
For more information, visit http://senseandsolidarity.org

Episode 1 - 29 October 2024

Heartbreak

“Heartbreak is at the heart of revolutionary consciousness” writes Gargi Bhattacharyya. So let’s get used to it! 

In this episode of What Do We Want? (a podcast about what brings social movements together and drives them apart), Sarah and Max ask the tear-jerking questions about movement breakups, wounded hearts and petty revenge fantasies.

Should we try and hit on (recruit) everyone? How can we keep our movement romance alive (or should we fight about the kitchen)? And should we utter goblins have more schisms (and can we even help it)?

Then, thank god, Black feminist writer and activist Lola Olufemi joins us to set the record queer.

It’s podcasting that hits you like cheap wine and a romcom. Get back out there, tiger.

  • Amygdala: small structure in the brain that helps regulate your emotions. It is also involved in memory and learning. Most importantly, when it is disabled (by, say, sexual attraction or activists excitement) it can’t easily feel fear or spot threats. That’s not so helpful for us in making judgments!
  • Depressive Position: a mental state theorised by the psychoanalyst Melanie Klein, an important developmental milestone for both children and adults where we can accept that good and bad qualities can coexist in the same “object”, whether that’s our partner, our ex, our social movement or a political system as a whole. This position is difficult to achieve and also difficult to retain; at times we often revert to oscillating between loving and hating the ‘object’ instead. 
  • The Radical Imagination: a collective force that arises when people challenge the structures of power that oppress them, one that not only inspires visions of a better future but that is grounded in new and re-emergent social relations.
  • Think about a romantic breakup that you went through. What lessons from that could you now apply to movement breakups?
  • Can you think of a circumstance where a movement you were part of should have broken up or broken up earlier? What benefits would that have created?
  • Write a three sentence recruiting pitch for your current/forthcoming social movement that is aimed at roughly everyone, then write one that is a “hot eight”, eg, for a very specific person who might be crazy about it.
  • Phanuel Antwi is on the phone with you at three in the morning. 
  • Anne Schnake is, on balance, not in favour of nukes for North Korea.
  • Judy and Larry Haiven have reached the depressive position.  
  • David McRaney is a damn hot eight. 
  • Marie-Elena Ruffo is helping the movement break up gracefully. 
  • Victor Wong is reminding you not to text your ex. 
  • Diana Stein is moving beyond the fantasy of total reconciliation.
  • Mike Lubrano and Debbie Stein are building the coalition, and moving it past the womb phase.  
  • Alastair Elphick is our producer and he’s fully post-romantic. 
  • Music by Daniel Gouly, who knows how to love well in the long term.

Read our episode one essay

Kitchens, Sex and Money

Why Movement Breakups Happen (and Why Maybe It’s Not Such a Bad Thing)

Read

Episode 2 - 5 November 2024

Conspiracy

Unless you are a lizard person hiding under a tin-foil rock, you, dear activist, have met your fair share of conspiracists.

What the f*ck is wrong with these people? And why are they so damn successful in attracting others when their stories are so implausible?

In this episode of What Do We Want? (a podcast about what brings social movements together and drives them apart), Max and Sarah sail to the farthest reaches of our beautiful flat earth to answer questions about CONSPIRACY like…

What actually separates us radical malcontents from conspiracy theorists? Should movements have better enemies? And should we bother trying to drag people out of the rabbit-hole?

Then ex-conspiracist and anti-conspiracy podcaster Brent Lee of Some Dare Call it Conspiracy patiently explains all the things we got wrong.

It’s podcasting that wakes up the sheeple.

  • Strong ties: close relationships with friends and family. These are *usually* the people that can change your views…
  • Weak ties: acquaintances and friends of friends. For isolated people, these relationships might be the ones that draw you in to a new beliefs system. 
  • Action possibilities: possibilities we can imagine for our own actions and life choices. A lot of how we understand the world is through these possibilities!
  • Cognitive Map: a cognitive map is a shorthand understanding of the action possibilities available to us–it’s usually not totally accurate, but it often helps us understand what we might want to do anyway. 
  • Think of someone you know or have heard of who come to believe a conspiracy theory. If you could turn back time, what could be done to prevent them from coming to believe that?
  • Who is the villain in your social movement? In what ways are they replaceable? How can you build that into a good movement anyway?
  • Are there ways that your social movement might inadvertently make people feel disempowered? If so, how? Are there other ways of framing the same issue?
  • Gemma is hanging out at Comet Ping Pong (and the pizza’s not bad!).
  • Kathleen Stein is the queen of both strong and weak ties. 
  • Marie-Elena Ruffo is rewriting disempowering narratives. 
  • David McRaney is choosing better political enemies.
  • Judy and Larry Haiven are keeping an eye on the World Economic Forum, just in case.
  • Phanuel Antwi is reminding people that the government really does conspire against activists everywhere.
  • Victor Wong isn’t wasting his time arguing with conspiracists. 
  • Diana Stein knows the moon landing was real. 
  • Mike Lubrano and Debbie Stein are providing political education to the community before the nutjobs can reach them.
  • Alastair Elphick is our producer with the highest journalistic standards. 
  • Music by Daniel Gouly, who is conspiring to own more synthesizers.

Read our episode two essay

Why Conspiracies Win

Read

Episode 3 - 12 November 2024

Despair

Do you sometimes feel like a little cartoon dog, surrounded by flames? Is the dog also our movements for justice? Are the flames systems of domination? Is nothing, in fact, at all “fine”?

Then break out the marshmallows and join us for an episode of What Do We Want? (a podcast about what brings social movements together and drives them apart) about despair!

This time Sarah and Max go deep and dark with questions like should we just give up hope? Should we embrace nostalgia? And should we stop being sad and… just do something?

But wait! Who is that on the bleak horizon? It’s climate-corruption journalist Rachel Donald of the Planet Critical podcast, joining us to deliver the tough love and a shot of common courage!

It’s podcasting that will make you feel cruelly optimistic or your money back (it’s also free).  

  • Dopamine: a chemical that does a lot of things, but that is part of our brain’s reward system. We might get a dopamine hit from doing all kinds of activism. 
  • What might your tendency to despair be protecting you from having to consider?
  • What forms of resistance could you look for in everyday people that are related to an issue you care about?
  • What kind of obituary might you give a movement from the past that you admire?
  • Ken Collier has the pessimism of the intellect, and 
  • Erika Walker has the optimism of the will  
  • Marie-Elena Ruffo knows that to be on the left is to attend the funeral of a thousand movements.
  • David McRaney is refusing to engage in accelerationism.
  • Judy and Larry Haiven are chatting with the ‘68ers about their shattered dreams. 
  • Phanuel Antwi is overcoming melancholia.
  • Victor Wong is giving up on nostalgic aesthetics to focus on the here and now.
  • Diana Stein is much happier for being an activist. 
  • Mike Lubrano and Debbie Stein have moral clarity that transcends the question of hope.
  • Alastair Elphick is our producer and he never lets us despair. 
  • Music by Daniel Gouly, who is working on the aesthetics of the future.

Read our episode three essay

Despair is justified... but unfortunately not useful

Read

Episode 4 - 26 November 2024

Fantasy

Why do so many people insist on believing in systems that hurt them? 

Why do so many of us dwell in fantasy, rather than facing reality? 

(Wait, is dwelling in fantasy an option? Why weren’t we told?) 

In this episode of WHAT DO WE WANT? Max and Sarah dive deep into the murky waters of FANTASY, desire and illusion to ask questions like: 

  • How do we break through destructive ideologies? 
  • How can we win arguments (and when should we)? 
  • And should we just abandon activism? 

Then we’re joined by veteran Toronto-based activist, movement trainer and editor Sharmeen Khan, who tells us about the state repression that broke her fantasies and what she dreams of now. 

It’s podcasting that accompanies you right to the precipice of Mount Doom and helps you throw away your Precious.

  • Grand River land dispute (The indigenous land reclamation mentioned in the discussion)
  • More on cognitive dissonance and action possibilities here (Max calls them “action potentials” in the show but that’s usually more of a physics term)
  • Sarah’s book (which explores how it’s our friends and actions that change our minds, and not debate or exposure to ideas)
  • Lacan’s concept of the Big Other (who we often are really arguing with when we try to take up debates… or trying to appeal to when we engage in certain kinds of actions)
  • Suffs (The cheese-y feminist musical that shows what happens when movements break up and how for some people, activism is for a time and for some it’s for life)
  • Action possibilities: possibilities we can imagine for our own actions and life choices. A lot of how we understand the world is through these possibilities!
  • Cognitive dissonance: the psychological discomfort we feel, even unconsciously, when we notice a contradiction between our beliefs and actions. This phenomenon is a key reason people struggle to have their minds swayed when we argue with them, as described in this episode.
  • The ERA: The Equal Rights Amendment, a constitutional amendment to protect women’s rights in the US that was never won.
  • Who is the person you’re always trying to win an imaginary argument with?
  • What does that person get from believing in their ideology, materially and personally?
  • What do you “get” from your identity as an “activist” (or whatever?)
  • Edward Charles Frank is fighting the ideological state apparatus. 
  • Amelia is wrestling with the fantasy of the movement as saviour.
  • Marie-Elena Ruffo is holding her fantasies lightly. 
  • David McRaney is helping people rewrite their metal maps.
  • Judy and Larry Haiven are moving people left on the spectrum of allies.
  • Phanuel Antwi is our active ally. 
  • Victor Wong knows that changing peoples’ fantasies won’t happen overnight. 
  • Diana Stein is rejecting bad utopias. 
  • Mike Lubrano and Debbie Stein are glad Sarah doesn’t work for the military-industrial complex. 
  • Alastair Elphick is our producer and definitely an ally of one kind or another. 
  • Music by Daniel Gouly, who is forcing himself to avoid arguing with the wrong people.

Action Alert!

Our episode 4 guest Sharmeen Khan, a long-time Toronto organizer and movement educator, is currently facing outrageous charges for standing up for Palestinian human rights.

Read Naomi Klein's summary of this perversion of justice and please consider donating to Sharmeen and others' legal defence and/or signing the letter demanding their charges be dropped.

Donate to Sharmeen and other activists' legal defence......and/or sign a letter demanding these repressive charges be dropped!

Read our episode four essay

Don't Argue with Daddy, or Cultivating Better Activist Fantasies

Read

Episode 5 - 3 December 2024

Shame

We, an unnamed collective, must sanctimoniously inform would-be listeners that the shame episode of What Do We Want? (a podcast about what brings social movements together and drives them apart) has been summarily canceled.

The hosts, Sarah and Max, have been found preemptively guilty of causing grievous harms to the left by asking questions including: Is pride enough? Should we wield shame? And should we cancel ourselves?

(Also, did you hear that they invited a response from the scandalous radical writer Sophie Lewis, author of Abolish the Family and Enemy Feminisms? OMG!).

And by the way, “comrade,”… what made you want to listen to this f*cked up podcast anyway?

Don’t you think that kind of behaviour is a little… problematic? 

  • Sophie Lewis | creating writing | Patreon (you can support Sophie and her work here!)
  • Sophie’s forthcoming book, Enemy Feminisms. 
  • Sophie’s website. 
  • Gay shame: (A movement that shames gay landlords and others who betray the queer movement by colluding with capitalism._
  • Olúfẹ́mi O. Táíwò’s book Elite Capture (the book that looks at what happens when we prioritise formal representation and then the most privileged of the minority group take over; “A powerful indictment of the ways elites have co-opted radical critiques of racial capitalism to serve their own ends”)
  • Devon M. Price’s book Unlearning Shame (the book we reference on both approach-based emotions and avoidance-based emotions, and on “trashing the bathroom”)
  • The Sogorea Te Land Trust (which is asking people not to wallow in their shame but to help give back land.)
  • Discover the CIA’s Simple Sabotage Field Manual: A Timeless Guide to Subverting Any Organization with “Purposeful Stupidity” (1944) | Open Culture (Sarah mentioned this on the show and wrongly attributed it to the FBI.)
  • Homo Zion — Parapraxis  (this is the article Sophie mentions when it comes to acts done in one’s name)
  • Reification: mistaking an abstract category for something more concrete. This can go wrong when, for example, we take a minority identity category so seriously that we feel that once we’ve given representation to someone in that group we’ve done what work needs doing (rather than engaging in broader projects of liberation). 
  • Approach-based emotions (like hope, love, curiosity, and even anger and mild sadness) encourage you to move toward others and to engage with reality in an active way. Definition from Devon Price’s writing here. 
  • Avoidance-based emotions (such as disgust, apathy, and despair) close the body off and move us to separate from other people. Definition from Devon Price’s writing here. 
  • Reactance:  an emotional reaction to pressure or persuasion that results in the strengthening or adoption of a contrary belief. Often it involves a dislike or turning away from the person or people trying to change your mind.
  • When was the last time you felt shame? what did you do as a result? 
  • In your issue area, is there a risk that your movement(s) could be coopted by other forces or used as part of whitewashing?
  • Is there a group you could successfully motivate by shame in your struggle? If so, can you give them any good options for how to escape that shame (e.g. a new place to “shop”, new actions to undertake…)
  • Zarinah Agnew is helping whole communities overcome systemic shame. 
  • Marie-Elena Ruffo knows better than to shame the shameless. 
  • David McRaney is turning towards the use of approach-based emotions. 
  • David S is finding an alternative to canceling people.
  • Judy and Larry Haiven refuse to be pulled into your moral system. 
  • Victor Wong knows pride is not enough.
  • Phanuel Antwi is actively shaming gay landlords. 
  • Diana Stein doesn’t feel shame, only Jewish guilt. 
  • Mike Lubrano and Debbie Stein don’t let friends shop at Walmart. 
  • Alastair Elphick is our producer and he’s blessedly an ocean away from Walmart. 
  • Music by Daniel Gouly, who turns Jewish guilt into Jewish art.

Read our episode five essay

Shame Games

Read

Episode 6 - 9 December 2024

Pleasure

Live, in front of a seductive studio audience, Sarah and Max bring to a climax the first intoxicating season of What Do We Want? (a podcast about what brings social movements together and drives them apart) with an episode on pleasure.

They are joined by dazzling special guests Sita Balani and Zrinka Balo, to explore salacious questions including: Should we prioritize activism being pleasurable? In a world of work and worry, is taking pleasure itself an important form of activism? And in our quest for collective liberation, what kinds of sacrifices can and should we expect of ourselves and others?

It’s podcasting that goes beyond the pleasure principle and puts its finger right on the most sensitive questions.

  • Critical Mass: An informal, leaderless bike ride that meets on the last Friday of every month, in cities around the world. Often used to advocate for safer cycling routes in the city.
  • What is pleasurable about activism for you?
  • What might your movement do to make itself more pleasurable or meaningful? How could it communicate its pleasures to potential recruits?
  • What substitutes for this kind of pleasure and meaning is capitalism offering people right now?
  • Errol Sharpe is refusing the self-abnegation of the capitalism system.
  • Noreen Masud is engaged in joyful militancy. 
  • Marie-Elena Ruffo is willing to engage in the right amount of sacrifice. 
  • David McRaney knows that what he desires won’t always make him happy. 
  • Judy and Larry Haiven are putting up the sign that says no drugs, no sex. 
  • Phanuel Antwi is disobeying that sign. 
  • Victor Wong is avoiding rationalising the desire to consume whatever he wants. 
  • Diana Stein is pursuing meaning, not hedonism. 
  • Mike Lubrano and Debbie Stein are thinking about good forms of degrowth. 

Incredible thanks to our panel tonight: 

  • Sita Balani who gives us pleasure by keeping it real and hilariously funny
  • Zrinka Balo who encourages us to re-imagine what might give us pleasure
  • Martha Awojobi who makes the hard work super fun.

 

  • Alastair Elphick is our producer who takes no pleasure in public applause. 
  • Our beautiful music is by Daniel Gouly who takes a lot of pleasure in public acclaim. 

Bonus episode - 17 February 2025

Fascists, Rats, and Dick Pics: Holiday Special

The world is giving fascism in 2025, so we’ve been away writing, reading and getting ready to serve up more on that topic. 

Meanwhile, here’s a chattier, less-structured version of our usual schtick – recorded over the holidays, live in front of a studio (well, living room) audience. 

Tune in to hear:

  • Sarah talk about why we shouldn’t argue with our relatives and why fascists are much like guys who send dick pics.
  • Max explain how games influenced fascists like Steve Bannon and why he’s obsessed with a rat.

We also get asked questions from the living-room-and-online-studio audience.

Thanks to those who asked questions in this episode, and who attended our live event!

Bonus episode - 3 April 2025

Spring Update: (Billionaires and Guillotines ~ Fascist Dreams ~ Don't Talk about Politics)

In this short bonus episode…
  • 👹 We at Sense & Solidarity invite you to apply for our study workshop “Fascist Dreams, Antifascist Awakenings” in Palermo, May 25-29 (applications due April 7!).
  • 📘 Sarah tells you about her forthcoming book Don’t Talk About Politics: How to Change 21st Century Minds and events this Spring and Summer.  
  • 🎲 And Max tells you about the crowdfunding campaign on now for his board game Billionaires & Guillotines. 
  • 🖼️ Plus, we critique public art and muse about the end of the world.

Credits

What Do We Want is written and hosted by Sarah Stein Lubrano and Max Haiven and produced and edited by Alastair Elphric.

Music and sound mastering is by Daniel Gouly.

The project has been supported by ​RiVAL: The ReImagining Value Action Lab and our many crowdfunding supporters including…

 

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